Friday, January 29, 2010

How the new emblem system ruined heroics (and what could be done to save them)

I am a busy player. I don't have the time to raid or the reflexes to PvP, so I run heroics instead. I still get to play in groups, but I don't have to dedicate a large portion of my time to the game; I can simply plop down for a half-hour or hour when I have one to spare. With the death of solo content in Wrath, heroics were really all I had left, and now my last little sanctuary has been perverted by the very thing that were supposed to save it: the new emblem system.

I'm talking about the system by which heroics offer the second best emblem in the game, while the first random heroic you do each day (previously, it was the daily heroic-quest) gives you two of the best emblems in the game. There was a time when heroics only gave you emblems of heroism, the worst emblem in the game. These emblems were used to obtain gear that was good for heroics, but would never let you out-gear them. With the new emblem system, amazing gear is obtainable by people who have never stepped foot in a raid. Now, certainly, this system has benefits. People can gear up their alts rather quickly and get them into the highest tier of raiding without forcing their guild to drag them through the previous raids. Through heroics alone, I have decked out my druid in tank gear good enough that I could run Icecrown Citadel 10-man if I wanted to. The issue is, I can't, so for me, and players like me, heroics allow us to obtain amazing gear that we will never put to use. You could say that the new ICC 5-mans, the Frozen Halls, are the place to go to use that gear, but in the gear I'm in, only Halls of Reflection is a challenge, and I'm not going to run that one over and over again just because it's the only place that is difficult.

And so we see the issue. For people who only run heroics, the new emblem system allows us to get gear that only serves to make the content we are running easier. These same heroics that once provided some level of satisfaction are now hollow shells of what they once were. They are not challenging, they are not interesting, and they are not enjoyable. To pour salt in the wound, the ridiculously inflated cost of emblem of frost gear forces raiders, most of which ran heroics nauseam in order to gear up for Naxx, to run heroics each day so that they can get their gear in a timely manor. Many of them hate the heroics with a passion, and their animosity makes heroics less enjoyable to run when it rubs off on those of us who still enjoy them to some degree.

The dungeon finder only exacerbates this situation. It allows people to chain run heroics, bringing them to the point where heroics provide no challenge even faster than players would get there on their own, and it makes the groups inconsequential, promoting the kind of dickish behavior we see in heroics today. After all, when the only repercussions for your actions are being put on someone's ignore list (a punishment that is completely intangible), what motivation is there for the common man to not be a jerk? He wants his emblems, he wants them quickly, and he doesn't want to bother with the niceties that were once required to successfully complete a heroic.

Where does the solution lie? The benefits of the new emblem system are that it allows raiders to gear up their alts quickly and allows people who are only now reaching the level cap to quickly gear up for the most recent raid content. If Blizzard were to scrap the emblem system, the new solution would need to address these two problems.

The first one could be addressed by making emblems bind-to-account, thus allowing raiders to send their excess emblems to their alts. Some may object to that idea, since heroics are supposed to give people practice with their characters, practice they need to perform well in a raid. However, the kind of heroic runs that have become prominent since patch 3.3 (the "silent but deadly" speed runs) are hardly good places to train oneself for raiding. Overgeared healers can heal the tank and DPS through their mistakes, and overgeared tanks make threat a non-issue for DPS, while overgeared DPS make the bosses die so quickly that the encounters are nothing more than tank-and-spanks. This particular issue could be solved if the dungeon finder only put people with similar gear together in groups. That would mean the people who need to do the heroics slowly and need the practice would be put with people like themselves, while the impatient people who outgear the heroics would be put with people like themselves and could burst through the content. While this might be a good short-term solution, it doesn't address the larger issues of the emblem system.

However, if all Blizzard does is scrap the emblem system while making emblems BoA, that wouldn't address the fact that the new emblem system helps people who have only recently hit 80 get into the current tier of raiding, saving them the trouble of finding people who will run them through the previous tiers. If heroics only dropped the worst emblems, there would need to be a way for people to still get good gear without going through the old raids. I propose that, when Cataclysm hits, with each patch that Blizzard releases a raid, they also release a 5-man dungeon or two, like how with the release of Icecrown Citadel, they added The Frozen Halls. These new dungeons would be harder than other heroics, obviously, but to compensate, they would drop the emblems and gear that are better than the last tier of heroics. To use the current heroics as an example, some Ulduar-based 5-man would have been released with patch 3.1, and it would have dropped emblems of valor. Trial of the Champion would have dropped emblems of conquest, and the Frozen Halls would have dropped emblems of triumph (perhaps the Halls of Reflection could have dropped emblems of frost, considering how hard it is).

Yes, this would mean that heroics would become a new kind of progression, but is that such a bad thing? They are very popular now, so it wouldn't be a bad idea for Blizzard to cater to the part of their fanbase that likes heroics more than raids. This system would also mean that people could gear up for the current tier of content through heroics, which are quick and don't require a lot of preparation, rather than by running old raids, which takes a long time and requires more preparation and people.

So, to summarize the changes I propose:
1. When Cataclysm is released, the heroics that are available upon the launch date with drop the same emblem as the starter 10-man raids, while the 25-man versions will drop the next tier of emblems. As patches are released, the new raids will give better emblems, but the base emblems in old heroics will not change.
2. Emblems will become bind-on-account so that raiders can use their extra emblems to gear up their alts.
3. With each raid that is released, one, two, or three new 5-mans will be released, the heroic versions of which will drop the same emblem as the 10-man version of their corresponding raid. This will allow people to gear themselves up for the current raid content without running old content.

Edit: I would just like to add that these are preliminary ideas to inspire others to come up with truly great solutions; they are not meant to be end-all-be-all fixes.

29 comments:

  1. Ah, my first troll comment; I wondered when it would happen.

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  2. Ah, your still stupid.

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  3. And you're still bad with grammar...

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  4. What if they released something like 6 or even 10 new dungeons (instead of just 3 like they did last patch)? I mean instead of making all the "normal" dungeons just convertable to heroics they could develop the dungeons ahead of time and do something like they did with the argent tournament but make it a server wide event to open up the new area (with say 3 new dungeons). I honestly don't see why they couldn't, especially if they made them fairly short. I suppose you'd run the risk of spreading players out too much among the dungeons, but really you'd have only a few "tiers" of 5 mans, and if you made it random like it is now then putting groups together wouldn't be such a problem.

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  5. like you're ideas. (please note grammer is in theme of previous Anonymous poster.)

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  6. Heroics are very popular now because they have a place in filling out gear gaps for raiders and bringing new players/reactivated players/alts up to speed for raids. There was a time they only served to gear people up for heroics and begining raids. This was before the LFG tool, when heroics were barely being run. Other than the daily heroic (which, of course, rewarded top level emblems) heroic runs were in short supply. I really don't see how retooling things to make them less popular is a wise move for blizzard.

    If you enjoy running 5 mans, I'd suggest making an alt and leveling up through the LFG tool. It's easy to find groups, and you'll be able to do everything at the gear level it was designed to be done at, until you get to 80.

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  7. Actually although I don't agree with all you say it is very well thought out and makes sense on alot of lvls.The heroics are becoming redundent and speed runs are becoming the norm with less geared players paying the cost as the "geared" ones do not have the time or patience to teach anymore.Now I happen to think I do have patience and have taught otheres with my semi over geared toons.
    However unless you have this access to the new gear you never get into the so called elitest raids which contain some of the most jerks imaginable.the so called gear score admitance and must know all fights have made it bad where only a select few had entrance to the hard content as no one was giving anyone new a chance.
    Pugging at times was a dread as comments like"looking for pvp ers but If I dont know your name don't answer.The thing is most of these elitest got there start from patient people who were willing to exept people s low gear and mistakes to teach.these same people don't realize that if you treat these people bad interest in Wow diminishes and the game dies...you need new blood but you also need a chance to compete on the higher lvls. I believe Blizzard should add a tear lvl of dungeons...this can be done as they nerfed Occulus enough...say reg heroic and epic to bring these old fun heroics back to life and leave the raids as is...also make giuld s worht something...there are trying in the new expansion but in the mean time put outcast statis on giuld jumpers and such...givr giuld only benifits even if its a simple allowance system...anyways I run a high lvl pally shammy and a little lower hunter and like the tjhought of emblem shareing as the tiumphs don't mean too much to my shamm...leass everyday to my pally and such need more access to raids...however Im not an elitest an enless I want to go in those new GDKP or such raids were the elites are simply draining peeps of there gold theres not much access.
    My giuld is medium size with good people,,,,,some good gs...mine being in the 2500-2700 range as of wow heroes but we do not have enough for frequent 10 man and run our smaller guys thu the heroics but they are becoming a cake walk because of us going with them and they dont get the same enjoymnet{frustration} that we did when we originaly did them and thats a loss...if they did a 3 tier system and made it almost like there current dungeon system but with the exeption that you could be overgared for a dungeon and thus not enter it would mean either keeping some old gear for lower dungeons to get entrance.
    Then you would have experienced players running lower giuldies but in lower gear instead of seeeing 80s with 2700 gearscores running new 80s thu reg or beginnig lvl heroics.
    Its not uncommon to see 2700 gs{giulty} running 1700 and 1800 peeps thru just to emblem run.They should also make raiding cities worth something....have patrol quest and such with rewards. right now when the horde raid sw...half go lets get them but most say why bother...they been killing the auctioneers lately,although an incovienece I think its great....brings something into it but make it worse,put AH out for an hr or so or at reduced effectiveness, same with the bank lolright now city defender which I have on 2 0f 3 really means nothin,,,people should remember the game is horde vs aliance my two cents worth

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  8. This is definitely worth posting on the Official Forums Suggestions Category!

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  9. Well, with certain people at Blizz still at the helm we'll never get away from "raiding is the point of the game" mentality. Things like BOA emblems are a no-brainer and should've been in place a long time ago.

    If heirlooms are BOA then why shouldn't badges? It's just mind-numbing how obvious solutions are and how fail Blizzard is at implementing them. It's like a great idea comes up and they only implement about 60% of it and then go "duh?!" and go ahead with the other 30% later.

    It's that or they are just so fixed on NOT doing obvious things that they only give as little as possible.

    Either way I really don't like having to run the same heroics again on multiple toons just to get badges. Seems like they are flogging a dead horse.

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  10. I like a lot of what you have suggested. It didn't take long for Wrath heroics to be come a faceroll joke. The only reason people are running them at all is to gain access to the high tier emblems that are dropped.

    I remember BC heroics were quite challenging, even towards the end of BC when people were geared it wasn't surprising to wipe in some of the heroic dungeons.

    I'm aware that many people whine about the difficulty of BC heroics but I really enjoyed them, far more so than current heroics, and many of the people I play with also comment on how good BC was in this respect. People have such little patience these days. Spending an hour, or even more, running a BC heroic was so much fun! Planning the pulls and coordinating the fight successfully was an accomplishment. Heroic dungeons should be HARD, they should require skill and they should add to the epic feel of the endgame. They are the training ground for entry level raiding - another thing that BC did far better than Wrath.

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  11. To release new (more difficult) heroics at the same time as new raids are release would require either: 1. less content available at the start (so it can be release later) or; 2. Blizzard to create more content. I don't think an expansion with only 3 new instances will be particuarly well received so the second is the only reasonably option. So what you are really saying is you want Blizzard to give you more content because there are jerks in LFD and heroics are too easy. There will always be jerks that is a fact of life. The fact that you out gear a heroic is your fault. Noone forced you to trade those emblems in for T9. Why don't you and everyone else in the group unequip your epics and run the heroic in quest greens for the extra challenge. You can have your challenge while letting everyone else play how they want to play rather than imposing your playstyle on others.

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  12. As someone who almost exclusively runs 5-man, I love this idea! I really dig the concept that 5-mans can be a "viable" progression path -- for those of us that are time-limited or the like.

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  13. You totally contradict yourself in this stupid rant.

    The heroics have useable rewards for all so that you dont have to queue for an hour to get a run that then bails on first mistake.

    Spend your time more condstructibvely and stop thinking you speak for the wow community as a whole if your only achievement is doing heroics.

    Badadz

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  14. I dont think you considered under gearing yourself or your party members as solution. Why change a whole system for multitudes of people when you could easily just equip some old heroic gear to satisfy your need for a challenge. The same concept applies to freezing your experience bar. People who thought the older raid content were challenging froze their level capped and stayed at 60, 70, etc. As for heroic progression, heroics will never be equal to raids. Alot more people want to be raiding progressively with 10 or 25 people compared to five. Because playing with more than 5 people is alot more fun. It might sound harsh but no one wants play with just 5 people forever. WoW is an MMO, a massive multiplayer game can't become successful if it caters to people who want to progress as a 5 man team in PVE content.

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  15. Elitist grumble - oh no everyone can get the same gear as me. The only thing that is not fun about the new Lfd is the vocal minority crying about gearscores or low dps etc. You sound like a total bigot that has to stick a label on everything you see.

    " labels represent a way of differentiating and identifying people that is considered by many as a form of prejudice and discrimination."

    Segregation never worked and you are a fine example to why.

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  16. "Why don't you and everyone else in the group unequip your epics and run the heroic in quest greens for the extra challenge. You can have your challenge while letting everyone else play how they want to play rather than imposing your playstyle on others."

    I have considered doing that. However, if I did, I would be imposing my playstyle on others indirectly because I would be slowing down the run, thus inconveniencing them. Intentionally running heroics in low-level gear these days would be like driving 20 mph on the highway because you don't like how fast people expect you to drive. You may enjoy it more, but everyone else will resent you for slowing them down.

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  17. It seems like it would have been better to not skip a badge level to bring us to where we are now. It wouldn't be so bad if we got Triumph badges for the first run and Conquest ones for following runs.

    I'm on-board with ramping up the rewards so people can see content, but I agree the "fire hose" method of gear inflation seems to have gotten out of hand.

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  18. We are now two gear tiers higher than the game was designed for. Blizz has acknowledged that they did not anticipate creating such high gear levels in Lich King. If 232 was the max-level raiding gear available, heroics would be a very different experience than they are now. In this and many other ways, we're dealing with the fallout of Blizzard's miscalculation -- from the dodge debuff in ICC to the PvP healing debuff to the ever-widening gap between h.pallies and disc priests at tank healing.

    All I'm saying is that I wouldn't use *this moment* as a reference point for "what's wrong with WoW." It's someplace we shouldn't have gotten to in the first place.

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  19. Emblems being BoA would just let anyone who has the sense to be a healer or a tank run repetitively and not play with other characters, in which case, why would you bother to play the other characters? I myself have 4 level 80s. A ret pally, SP, resto shaman & a tree. I want to play all four characters. It'd be totally easy to just play my resto shaman, she outheals my tree, who is of the same fantastic gear, but I also like to see the big crits from my two dps classes. It totally sucks to have to wait on the dps to get into a heroic, but at the same time, the satisfaction level of getting all the emblems and gear for them far outweigh the benefit of the healers.

    The instances are tiered. You've got your easy baby instances, the mediocre, and the tough ones. Occulus gives out better gear than a Naxx 10 from the last boss. All of which still have a challenge if you just slouch through them. Being the experienced healer that I am on my shaman, and having a greatly geared up tank, last night we wiped in HoL. I so remember when that used to be a "hard" fight. I still love and respect that place, along with several others, but that fight... When LK first came out, I remember getting the whispers "can you heal this fight??" and there were so many that couldn't!

    I don't care how horrid a person's gear is as long as they try. I do, however, have issues with a guild run that brings someone in, say a shaman... that just stands there. No dps, drops totems, even pops elemental mastery, but does absolutely nothing. That grates my nerves, and I left a group because of that. There's no excuse other than maybe it was a bot, but even so, why play the game if you're not PLAYING the game? I'll put up with the horridly geared tank with the fantastic dps classes, that pull off him, even with him trying unsuccessfully to keep control. I've had the horror experiences, and it's not only noobs, it's not only the people that are going in for their 2 frost badges daily, it's not those that are grinding out badges for gear. It's humankind. It's easier to point one finger at one type of player, but in reality, it just depends on the rng.

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  20. I agree there's a problem, but see it a little differently. I feel that heroics at the moment are breaking the idea of progression through appropriate content.

    As someone raiding ICC I resent the fact that the items I need to get gear to let me progress require time spent in trivial content. Especially when content that would still be a challenge (TotGC, Ulduar hardmodes) gives the same level emblems as the first normal-mode instance run of the day!

    Taking a fresh-to-80 tank toon into heroics to learn your stuff is an unpleasant and worthless experience because the levels of gearing between the lower and upper bounds are so wide, and widening by the week.

    Having heroics reward Triumph emblems to let fresh 80s have a chance of gearing up to a baseline for starting current endgame content seems reasonable to me, but I can't for the undeath of me see the point of having Emblems of Frost as a reward for this level of content - I'd love to see them removed from the heroic daily.

    As for reaching the limits of gearing for solo and small group play, it not only happens, but happens quicker than reaching the limits of raid gearing. I don't see how to avoid this happening. We're in the last content patch before an expansion, and it's pretty much what happened both times before. Folks progressed with raiding or played alts.

    At least this time you can have a bit of raiding fun with the weeklies, ony and voa, all of which take no longer than most heroics to run.

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  21. The problem with tiering Heroic content is this:
    Wrath has 16 Heroic dungeons at present. People are already tired of running most of them. What you're suggesting would mean that they would effectively be limited to three heroics (one heroic, if Halls of Reflection drops frosts!) if they wanted badge loot.

    At three badges per instance, that means you'd have to run Halls 32 times to get your tier chestpiece or legs, not to mention all the other loot you need. It's not the most fun way to play, but it's what's encouraged by the system, so it's what players will most likely do.

    This kind of thing leads to burn-out and would generally end with an unhappy playerbase. The idea might work if each patch that came out released ~8 instances, but I don't think Blizzard has the resources to produce 8 instances every four months or so. One of the best things about this system is that it means every Heroic is getting run, which helps those people who still need things from here or there.

    Is it unfortunate how players rush through and ignore optional bosses for their two frosts, then ditch the group? Of course. But it's better than nothing.

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  22. Brilliant, Sir. Never mind the bollocks. Or the haters. Or the trolls. I raid. I do one - count ONE - Heroic every day and it's a straight rip from start to last boss bypassing as much as I can. I queue as tank/dps in pvp spec with tanking gear I've not worked on since ...Ulduar ten hard mode days a few months ago. I'm a decent to good druid tank who likes helping people ...sometimes, but in Heroics it's just the need to destroy whatever is between me and my daily Frost's. I've got movies to make and raid strats and a life and rehabbing from injuries...

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  23. To O Digga's comment the fact that nobody wants to slow down and under gear themselves just proves people don't want a challenge in heroics. So why impose a whole revamp on the emblem system when nobody wants to slow down. If you don't want to impose your playstyle but you want a revamped system to suit your playstyle...I think thats kind of contradicting.

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  24. Undergearing isn't technically the only option you have. I mean there are harder ways to go about heroics. You could say hard mode heroics. For example pulling a whole room so your tank and your healer has more things to do. Not interrupting the spell fingers in Old Kingdom, pulling Hardonox while the adds are up in AN, or tanking Lavanthor in front of the group in Violet Hold. Simply take the easy part of heroics and try to change to make it harder.

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  25. Sure this has all been said before but...

    I tend to agree with making emblems BOA after as heroics right now really don't get you ready for the team work and co-operation needed to be successful in a raid and anything to not have to do the same content over and over with alts is a good thing in my opinion.

    Achievements in heroics added some spice and gave you a bit of the flavour of the raiding mind set but they have become increasingly easy with gear. Since we're not going to get more content why don't Blizz just upgrade the heroics, same stuff just harder. No need to really rejig the fights just up the difficulty as emblems progress you could have heroism level, conquest level, frost level dungeons to enter etc... and get the respective badges from those tiers.

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  26. Bliz philosophy: services+customers=profit.

    Do you think that a company of this scale is not taking strategical decisions about the "product"? I think not.

    Do you think that there is no plan about intentional "hypes" towards players? i think not.

    Take into consideration the current game hypes.

    Theodore.

    ps: Excuse me for my bad English.

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  27. the dungeon finder does group people together who have similar gear :P

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