Friday, March 5, 2010

Should the dungeon finder should put people of similar gear levels together?

As it stands now, the Dungeon Finder tries to create groups whose members have varying levels of gear; it tries to put people who outgear heroics to a ludicrous degree and people who are just starting to gear up together, rather than separate the two. Of course, this frequently ends up with people who are new to level 80 being put with elitist a-holes who could never fathom doing heroics in non-epics, even though we all used to do that. Many people have claimed that the Dungeon Finder should instead put people of similar gear levels together; people who are new to heroics would be put together and people who outgear them would be put together. But is this system really in everyone's best interests, or are we ignoring the risks of such a system?

Let's first look at the benefits of grouping people with similar gear together. People who out-gear heroics would stand to gain a lot from this kind of system. Most people who run heroics these days know that finishing the heroic is a given; the only thing that changes with your group composition is how long it takes to do so. As such, having "under-geared" members in your group only slows you down, but rarely if ever prevents you from finishing the heroic. If the Dungeon Finder put über-geared people together, they would get to breeze right through heroics and get their daily emblems of frost without difficulty. Many of the "best run" stories I hear about heroics are stories of groups where everyone had amazing gear and the trash and bosses died really quickly, so I don't think many players would object to more of their runs being like that.

What about the players that are still gearing up? What do they stand to gain from a system like this? Quite a lot, actually. If a player is just starting heroics, they likely don't have much experience with groups or with their class in group play. Heroics are not just a place to get gear; they also serve as a training ground for people so they can better play their characters when they move into raids. Now, let me ask you something: What does a tank learn when a healer can heal him through all his mistakes and the DPS can survive the damage they take if they overaggro? What do DPS learn when the tank causes so much threat that they don't need to worry about aggro and the healer can heal them through damage they should be avoiding? What do healers learn when tanks barely take any damage and DPS don't need to be saved immediately when they take damage? As it stands now, the Dungeon Finder spoils newer players, allowing them to get gear without the necessary experience and lessons that once accompanied it. That would be different if those new players were put with other new players: they wouldn't be carried through the heroics, so they'd learn something from it, and they'd be spared the hateful tongues of those who think one needs ilevel 232 epics to run heroics.

There's also the issue of intimidation. When a healer can't heal a tank that is chain-pulling half the instance because healers can usually heal him through that or he can't heal the DPS because they are taking damage that they should be avoiding, it's likely to turn him off from heroics. When a tank can't hold aggro because DPS refuse to watch their threat and they then chastise him for it, it's likely to turn him off from heroics. If a DPS are continually kicked from groups because they are only putting out 1.5k DPS, it's likely to turn him off from heroics. However, if people who are gearing up through heroics are put together, these issues would vanish because the potential for their existence would be lost. A new tank cannot chain-pull half the instance; a new healer can not heal the DPS through their mistakes, so he won't be expected to; and a new DPS can't pull aggro off of a comparatively geared tank. In short, players that are gearing up through heroics stand to gain a lot by being put in groups with other people who are gearing up through heroics.

Also, if the Dungeon Finder put people of similar gear levels together, there would be more of a sense of progression in heroics. If a new player starts out in heroics with players who can carry him through it, the heroics are already easy for him, and he'll probably get bored pretty quickly. If, however, he first runs heroics with people like himself, heroics will be challenging for him like they were in the early days of Wrath of the Lich King. As his gear gets better, he'll be put with people with progressively better gear, so the difficulty of heroics will go down accordingly, rather than starting easy for him when he first steps inside of them. Under a system like this, getting gear would make heroics easier for the player, rather than making him less of a burden to his groups. It would be a form of positive progression, rather than negative progression.

Now that we've gone over the easy stuff (the benefits of this system), what would the drawbacks of such a system be? One drawback for the more geared players would the potential for the widespread impatience among better-geared players to get worse. After all, no system is perfect, and people who are just gearing up would at some point be put with elitists. If the more geared players got used to being in very speedy groups, the less-geared players would be even more abused than they are now when they are inevitably put with more geared players. Rudeness is already an issue in heroics, but a system like this gives it the potential to become even worse. Still, considering just how bad rudeness had gotten in spite of mixed groups, I don't think it could get much worse. Would people who are gearing up suffer any ill effects from this system? None that they don't already suffer; they'd just suffer them less frequently.

So, in the end, everyone benefits from the mixed-group system being abolished in favor of a system by which people are put in groups with people in similar gear. It seems that the newer players would benefit the most, which is ironic, considering that the mixed-group system was probably put in place to benefit them.

14 comments:

  1. Good in theory, but you leave out that all of the "elite" people ran these very same heroics in ILVL 187 greens & blues successfully, yet these "noobs" are going in there with T9 ILVL 232 gear and random raid gear (219 & 232) and still failing hard. Having geared players will not help these people ever. They were lost during levels 1 to 79 when Blizzard failed to train them in their classes & dungeon roles.

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  2. I see were you are coming from here but as you said new players get turned off from heroics if they do not do particularly well and by putting them with other under-geared players they might not survive and therefore get turned off from heroics all together as they believe they will never be able to complete them if there group gets Pwned every time he does a run

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  3. I think another key point in getting fresh 80s started in heroics is to make sure that they understand to run regular ToC 5 and ICC 5 man dungeons a bunch first. They'll start getting some decent gear fast, and in the case of the ICC dungeons, start getting a few Triumph badges (and if they have some foresight, they'll be running random regular lvl 80 dungeons once a day as they near lvl 80 for yet more badges). With that, they should be reasonably geared by then to handle heroics, and not be a drag on the players that are geared six ways to Sunday. About the only except I could see to this is possibly tanks, it may still be tough for them to hold aggro against an obscenely geared DPS. With that, they can be reasonably similarly geared and good to go for heroics without Blizzard having to divide players into separate groups depending on how well geared people are.

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  4. Running regular ToC/ICC-5 instances to gear up is a great idea. The suggestion that you need to do so in order to run random heroics is kind of ludicrous though.

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  5. What you seem to fail to realize is the system DOES try to group people with similar gear. Blizz has said as much, it's just a low priority match. Go get your main into full ICC25 gear and check the groups you get, yeah there will occasionally be a much worse geared scrub but the vast majority of people you run with will be in ToC/ICC gear for the most part.

    Now go make yourself a fresh alt in greens and blues and hop in the queue, see who you get paired with. Yeah occasionally you'll get placed with someone in full ICC gear, but for the most part everybody you get grouped with will be in a mixture of badge pieces, naxx (maybe ulduar), and questing loot, and will overall be a much more painful experience.

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  6. One thing that is to be considered is how many of the green-and-blue geared toons actually are new to dungeons? I believe that most are alts, and they are not interested in learning heroics, they just want to gear up quickly so they can start raiding with their alt. I know, because I'm running my fourth alt through randoms now, and I'm glad that the gearing up process goes fast, it isn't that fun to run them for 100th time and it takes 40 mins with 3 wipes.

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  7. What I'd like to see is a 'check-off' section where you can turn off certain heroics to be placed in. Quite the opposite of selecting specific heroics to run and it would avoid running those dungeons you dislike as well as lowering those who dungeon desert.

    There are 16 heroics that you can run. Place a limit, such as 6 dungeons you don't want to be placed in, and it's still random enough to be a random heroic.

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  8. @First anonymous comment: I don't think anything can help those who reach level 80 without learning their role other than going into dungeons, not doing well, and hopefully getting some constructive criticism.

    @Second anonymous comment: Though I see your point, don't forget that we were those new players getting our butts handed to us in heroics not too long ago, and we still run them.

    @Zanathos: Though the suggestion that you need to gear up in purples in order to run random heroics is ludicrous in theory, in practice, it can help the player be able to keep up with the über-geared people he will likely see in heroics and not be a burden to the group.

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  9. I'm wondering how the queues times will be affected if the groups were formed from specific gear ranges. They'd more then likely go up for both the not-so-geared and over geared.

    Speaking as a player who has taken 3 tank alts, 3 healer alts and 3 dps alts through the random dungeon tool (I don't raid so it's the only gearing option for me), I can say that I've seen the best and the worst this tool has to offer and everything in between. At the end of the day, I'd rather team with someone with a low gearscore and give them the benefit of the doubt than have to queue longer to get a group.

    I also think that, as I've gradually out geared all the heroic instances, teaming with low-gearscore people keeps things interesting for me. There's still the sense of risk, rather than everything being a total cakewalk, you still have to be alert and on your game to keep them from dying.

    Speaking more from my healer point of view, I prefer teaming with lowbies as I get to heal again. Nothing worse than healing a heroic full of 5300GS elites hitting the odd renew or rejuv. I WANT to use my healing toolbox. I WANT the pressure of a last minute save. I can't remember the last time I used Guardian Spirit for example, and that, to me, is sad. Yeah, there's always the switch to DPS mode, but I chose a healer to heal, not lolsmite my way through a dungeon.

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  10. Random dungeons are also messing with lowbies as well as the high end raiders. People just abandon the group on silly whims and this is something to have a look at and address as well.

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  11. I think putting similarly geared players together wouldn't work. What's the point in l33t players running 5 mans just to bowl everything over in two seconds? Sure, some people love doing that but it gets old really quickly.

    On the opposite side of the coin, players who are all undergeared won't learn much if they're constantly getting their butts handed to them. There will be frustration and then they just won't bother to play. I've seen much the same happen in the battlegrounds where undergeared/unskilled players don't stand a chance and just give up to not return.

    Mixing the geared/undergeared works for both sides in that it provides unexpected challenges to the geared player while helping the undergeared to gear up. No matter what though, there will *always* be a-holes on all sides. However, there are just as many great players who don't care what your gearscore happens to be.

    If you can shrug off the mean people and keep on going you'll do just fine.

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  12. I've done heroics 8 million times on 3 different characters all are now 5200+ GS. I do frost runs daily on all 3. Only one of them was with the LFG tool. The tool itself is great, I love it. But I had to struggle through the heroics with the first 2, and spent alot more time doing them,and I think I learned to play those classes better than I have the 3rd.

    I didnt get carried, why should the nobies? It's not my job to instruct people or hold their hand.

    I actually went through the trouble to get all the crafted gear/boe epics i could get, mostly if not completely gemmed and enchanted, before I even stepped foot in a heroic. Not only did this make my job alot easier, it made me less of a burden on the group.

    Most of the people that are in there gearing up are just fine, as long as they are putting out what they should be and are at least close to proper gear(180+ blues) then its not a problem. The ones that roll in with 72 greens, and a mining pick for a weapon... those need to go.

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  13. Only problem i have is people expecting me a fresh 80 to have a amazing GS, know all the fights, AND tank against some DPS in 5k GS score gear. It's ridiculous i get kicked just for not having good gear, but how the hell am i supposed to get it if i cnt get into a grp. I'm forced into going as DPS and stealing from the tank which i HATE doing. And the rush, i HATE the rush i like a paced instance. Fuck you if you want ur bagdes right fucking away i like enjoying my game not making work out of it where im on pins and needles every pull because a guy or 2 wants to turn a 40 run into a 15 min one.

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  14. If Blizzard were to divide the players into lowergeared and overgeared brackets, wouldn't they be sending the signal that the lower geared are second rank players?

    You wrote that they would get a better learning and playing experience (and I agree), but what about the overgeared players? Are we ultimately not wanting to divide players both for the sake of the lowergeared AND to "protect" the overgeared from the horror of having a dungeon run take 5 mins extra?

    Do we want this segregation of players at all?
    This is the concern I've had myself, and
    I think it's a dangerous path to do down, but I'm not sure.

    I'm writing this while Cataclysm is still fresh, and they pretty much kept the WotLK LFD system. Yet I'm suspecting we'll be seeing these issues pop up again in a years time.

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